When gay men and lesbians from Bolesławiec and the surrounding area called each other on social media to arrange a social gathering, someone successfully frightened them in the comments. Someone wrote that people should get their shotguns ready, because soon everyone (LGBT people—the editor’s note) would be locked in one room… This is an excerpt from an interview with Joanna Włodarczyk. The full conversation is below.
Transcript of the conversation with Joanna Włodarczyk
Grażyna Hanaf: – Ms Joanna, when you replied agreeing to this interview, you wrote to me that you were nobody important. In the sense of someone well-known, of course, who might be able to speak on these topics. “However, I will agree to the interview because there has to be someone brave from the community who will show people in the city that we are ordinary people, not deviants.” Deviants. How would you define that term, and how is it presented in relation to LGBT people?
Joanna Włodarczyk: – I think people understand this word to mean simply a mentally ill person. Someone whose behavior is not in accordance with the norm. In my opinion, that is the general definition of the word.
– Yes, exactly, that is the definition of the word. PWN says: deviant, a person displaying deviations from the norm. However, you say “mentally ill person.” Do you encounter this idea that homosexuality is an illness in the feedback you receive from people?
– That is the most common feedback. That we are mentally ill and generally sick. That is standard.
– But is this feedback from the internet, or from family and friends? What is most common? Who does this feedback come from?
– I am lucky enough to have a loving mother who accepts it. A loving family, so—Mom, I love you! But unfortunately there are many people whose families think the same way, and whose families will say straight to their faces: “You are sick. We do not know you, get out of the house, never show your face here again.”
– Unfortunately, this does happen. Such information also appears in the press.
– A minute ago, they were a son or a daughter, and then they said at home, straight to their family’s faces, who they really are. That they simply love—normally, just like you or anyone else—a person of the same sex. And that simply erased them in the eyes of their parents, the closest people who raised this child and allowed this child to come into the world. Those people erased the child at that moment. So how must that child feel now?
– I think the greatest fear for a child is being rejected. We send our warmest regards to the supportive parents of LGBT+ people. And warm regards to Ms Joanna’s mother, who will surely enjoy watching this interview with her daughter. We will ask her how she liked it. You do not seem to be from Bolesławiec, judging by your profile. You came here from somewhere. Is that really the case? What did it look like, and why did you choose Bolesławiec?
– I did not choose it. It was not even my mother’s choice. My parents separated. My mother simply returned to her own mother, to her roots.
– So in fact you are true natives of the city of ceramics, through your mother’s side. I am curious because, after returning here, you surely also wanted to make contact with people who share your worldview, as well as the same orientation. Do we have an LGBT group in Bolesławiec? Some closed community that is hiding? What does it look like at all?
– It is impossible to say for certain. I know such people exist because, as someone from the community, you can see it when walking down the street.
– You have to tell me how you can see it. I would like to know.
– You need what is known as gaydar.
– Exactly, I hear about this mysterious gaydar. But do only homosexual people have it? Do heterosexual people not have gaydar?
– Heterosexual people have it too, because when I, for example, came to work, certain people immediately knew that I was queer.
– And how did they communicate that? Did they come up and say, “Hi Joasia, we know you’re queer,” or does it simply come out in conversation somehow?
– I am not afraid to tell anyone that I am a lesbian either. Why should I hide anything? I do not know. Is someone going to kill me? If they want to try, fine, come on, I have a knife too. I have fists; I can defend myself. If someone asks me, “Hi, do you have a boyfriend, a husband, a fiancé? You are 31 already, after all…” No, I do not. I am looking for a wife. Simple question, simple answer.
– That is a very good answer. And please tell me how people here in Bolesławiec react, at work, for example. How do your female colleagues react, and how do your male colleagues? I would like to know.
– I have never encountered a hostile response, for which I am very grateful and appreciative. But I know there are also people who would react badly. I have met several such people in my life who wanted to convert me. They said things like, “It’s a good thing a man hasn’t f***ed you properly,” or something like that. There are different responses and different kinds of behavior. Different countries, different customs. Every person has their own worldview, so you have to be prepared for people to respond in different ways.
– How do women react? Is there a difference between women’s and men’s reactions when you say that you are looking for a girlfriend, looking for a wife, and that you are interested in women in romantic relationships, of course?
– There is certainly a difference. Men very often reply, “Yes, we understand you; we like women too.”
– How lovely. And how do girls react?
– Normally. “Great, you’re looking for a girl, a wife—great.”
– Based on your experience, can we say that Bolesławiec is tolerant? Are people tolerant? Have you also encountered personal hate here?
– People are afraid to say certain things straight to your face too. We can look at the comments under some posts on the internet. The avalanche of evil and hatred pouring out there is overwhelming. The things people write there leave you speechless. But people no longer have the courage to tell the truth to someone’s face. So it seems to me that there are two extremes when it comes to telling people the truth. If I say, “I am a lesbian, I am looking for a girlfriend,” everyone says, “That’s great,” right? Later they will talk among themselves and think something completely different. So you have to take that into account too.
– I will ask because you used the word “truth”—that people are unable to tell the truth to someone’s face. Is the hate and hostility that spills out anonymously somewhere the truth, or is the warmth and openness shown face to face the truth? In your opinion, if you could think about it now and answer us.
– That is difficult for me to answer, because they could be people who are homosexual themselves but cannot come out. Perhaps they pour out their frustration in this way. Or they could genuinely be homophobes, so it is genuinely difficult to give a specific answer.
– In that case, let me ask how you would advise LGBT+ people to express themselves. Pride marches? Fighting for their rights? How do you think it would be effective to persuade people to accept you?
– Certainly not by imposing ourselves on heteronormative people, because that is very irritating. It irritates me too. Pride parades. Fine, they are nice from time to time, but they should not be excessive either. With some strange gadgets and everything. I went to one march once, just out of curiosity. It was like a walking disco.
– Was that recently or some time ago?
– Several years ago. I do not remember which year, but several years ago in Wrocław. I do not know what happens in Warsaw, so I cannot comment. These marches cause the media to pull out everything that is worst for us. And then it all gets amplified. The same goes for activists who, I do not know, paint Mary on a rainbow background, or—my colleague even told me today about “pussy Mary,” which I had not heard of. Extremes keep becoming more extreme. If we cross those boundaries, we alienate certain people. It is like love, like loving another person. You cannot be too caring, too protective, because that is still excessive.
– I understand, but I would put it this way about the marches. I send my daughter with friends, including a male friend, to Pride marches. She went recently in the autumn; she is thirteen. It really is a very nice movement, where no television station, regardless of its political orientation, could find anything bad. These marches really are parades of people who are both allies and LGBT+ people, walking just like at any other march. I would be more reluctant to let my daughter go to the Independence March in Warsaw, because some bald man might kill her there. But I will return to my question. So, do not impose yourselves. In that case, how should you fight for your rights? For example, you said, “I am looking for a wife.” Would you like to get married at the Civil Registry Office, stand before an official and simply enter into a regular marriage, or not?
– I would certainly like to be married. But in Poland that will never be possible because of the Constitution, which no one will ever change.
– Exactly. The Constitution contains no provision saying that same-sex relationships are forbidden. When we examine it, there is only this information…
– It says that marriage is a union between a woman and a man. However, we can enter into some kind of relationship if we go to a notary and sign all the documents. It is not really forbidden for us to be a couple on paper if that is what we want. If we truly pursue it. There are now so-called humanist weddings. A notary, or perhaps someone else who conducts the ceremony, comes to a given place at a given time. There are all the documents we could want, and we can conduct this so-called wedding.
– I understand, but it is not that kind of wedding…
– We can visit our loved ones in hospital. We can inherit from them. Everything that a civil marriage gives us.
– In that case, I have a question. You work, you certainly pay taxes, ZUS contributions and all the other things the state demands from its citizen or female citizen. I work too, and I pay all those taxes too. And when I come to the Civil Registry Office with a man, they take my ID, enter me into the records, and after a month they marry me. But when you come—the same kind of citizen as me, absolutely with the same rights to everything—when you come there with a woman, because if you came with a man there would be no problem, except that you do not want to come with a man, but when you come with a woman, they will say “no.” “You are a citizen of a worse category; you are not entitled to this.” Do you not feel uncomfortable about that? Because I understand all these humanist weddings; I could also have a humanist wedding with my male friend and simply authorize him to visit me in hospital. But I still have more rights solely because I come to the Civil Registry Office with a man rather than a woman. As a heterosexual person, I do not like that. Because you do not have all the rights like every other citizen, although you pay, for example, 50% of the taxes. Well, you cannot do everything.
– We have the same obligations as heteronormative people, but we do not have the same rights. Unfortunately, we will probably never obtain all the rights people have fought for. We have to live consciously somehow, as far as that is concerned.
– But are you talking about Poland, that we will not obtain these rights? For example, in France we already have such rights, in England too; people move to England, where there is adoption of children, and the Netherlands. A great many countries. The United States, Germany. Why not in Poland? Because some activists fought for it in the end?
– The time has not yet come in Poland. First of all, too many older people who have the right to vote still live here. The Church interferes in politics, which is connected with this. As long as these things remain linked, major changes concerning LGBT society are unlikely to occur. At least I am not fooling myself when it comes to major changes.
– Then I will say that I am keeping my fingers crossed that these changes do take place and that we do everything…
– I want to briefly return to your question about a closed community in Bolesławiec. It does not exist and probably will not, because of fear of people. Once there was a post on Facebook about wanting to meet. I also participated in it. It did not happen because there was an older comment saying that people should get their shotguns ready, because soon everyone would be locked in one room.
– Then I will say this: istotne.pl invites such people, and we will protect you. But please tell me, was the comment anonymous, or did a specific person write it and threaten you?
– It was written on Facebook. An ordinary, real person, flesh and blood. As far as I remember, probably a man.
– Did you report it? These are criminal threats; it is a very serious matter.
– No, I do not think I reported it then. But the issue went quiet. No one ever made such a request again regarding a meeting. And that is a great shame. I would very much like to organize something like that.
– Was it some kind of Facebook event, or something like that, or was it arranged independently?
– Just an ordinary question on Spotted. Someone took the initiative.
– Was that a long time ago?
– I think at least a year ago.
– Well, that is not exactly twelve months, please. Once again: if you organize such a meeting on our site and notify people about it, we will certainly make sure that nothing happens legally and that no one threatens you. It really is a very good idea to meet and get to know one another—for those who want to.
– LGBT people will be watching us. They will hear this.
– You are welcome. Under that information, we will make sure to provide details. If they want to, we will know what to do. Once again, thank you very much. Best wishes, goodbye everyone, goodbye Ms Joanna.
– Thank you very much as well, and I wish you a pleasant evening—or day, depending on what time you are watching this.