Our interviewees talk about PiS's management through fear, their experiences with the police and the courts, and whether they fear the consequences of taking part in protests. We also discuss how the nature of the original Women's Strikes has changed: there were far more young people at them than there are today, and the slogans shouted by protesters were much harsher.

The interview explains why Dariusz Sas would still send flowers to the Bolesławiec police, how many charges Kinga Gęsicka-Biały faces for shouting obscene words during the strike marches, and why Artur Kuczyński chose the resurgent Bolesławiec Civic Platform.

ATTENTION! The Bolesławiec Women's Strike is still looking for people who would like to display posters and banners on their properties, in clearly visible places. Interested people can get in touch via FB Bolesławiec Women's Strike.

Transcript of the conversation with the faces of the Bolesławiec Women's Strike

Grażyna Hanaf: – Good morning. Joining us today are the faces of the Bolesławiec Women's Strike: Kinga Gęsicka-Biały, Artur Kuczyński and Dariusz Sas. Tell us, were you pleased by the information that the court discontinued the proceedings in the case of Jakub Żulczyk, accused of insulting President Duda? Let me just point out that this concerns Żulczyk's now-famous statement in which he used the words “Andrzej Duda is an idiot.” Darek, were you pleased?

Dariusz Sas: – It is difficult to say whether I was pleased that calling our president an idiot is not an offense. I say this ironically, because our president has repeatedly shown that he is—putting it mildly—not entirely sane, and is certainly controlled and not independent. And if he is not independent, he behaves like a person with an intellectual disability. Describing this man in that way is entirely justified. The court shared my opinion. However, I would like to live in a country where the president is independent, makes rational decisions on behalf of the nation, and not on behalf of the party chairman. That is what I would wish for, but unfortunately we live in the country we do, and unfortunately such a description is not insulting to the president today, because we do not have a president. We only have a person performing the duties of president.

Grażyna Hanaf: – Żulczyk talks about the limits of criticizing those in power. Kinga, you have five charges, right? You had five charges for using an obscene word in public, so you are rather on Żulczyk's side. How did it end for you, and what do you think about Żulczyk?

Kinga Gęsicka-Biały: – In my case it has only just begun, because less than a month ago I filed an objection to the entire penalty order I received from the court, ordering me to pay some fine of PLN 400 for saying obscene words in the street.

Grażyna Hanaf: – Let me interrupt for a moment. Do you now know from the police what those words were? Do you still not know whether you said “damn” or something else?

Kinga Gęsicka-Biały: – To this day I do not know what those obscene words were. In any case, the police submitted a motion with five charges, and the court more or less agreed with it. My lawyer said that these are not five charges, but one, because it concerns me as one person. It was the same day and the same town. Only the times and, for example, the streets were different.

Grażyna Hanaf: – So you simply shouted one of the strike's slogans five times. Artur, you are an entrepreneur. Tell me, because you are all ending up in court, and you as well—you whistled at the president, trampled lawns during Morawiecki's visit, and greeted him with a bowl of rice, which the authorities also disliked. You are an entrepreneur; are you afraid of the way the authorities respond to your civic dissent? Are you having any problems as an entrepreneur because of it?

Artur Kuczyński: – So far I have had no problems at work because of it. Whether I will have them, I do not know. Fortunately, we have not yet ended up in court for trampling lawns. It seems that the mills of PiS justice grind slowly, thanks, apparently, to Mr. Ziobro's deformations. I do not know; perhaps the Bolesławiec police officers handling the case concerning these charges are not sufficiently committed. Am I afraid? Sometimes there is fear about whether there will be intensified inspections because of it. However, I do not think it will stop me from doing what I do.

Grażyna Hanaf: – In a private conversation, you once talked about managing through fear and how such behavior affects people. You have a specific opinion about that.

Artur Kuczyński: – Everyone here has heard words of support from various people, but spoken privately, off the record. “Great, excellent work; I would come to the demonstration too, but I cannot—you know, I work in a government office and I cannot. I would like to comment on your post on your fan page and even share it, but you know, I am afraid, because my husband works in the uniformed services, or my son is a police officer and could have problems because of it.” I have not heard of any specific problems affecting people who work in state services, state offices or local-government offices. No tangible cases where someone was clearly told they had suffered consequences for taking part in our march, strike or rally, or in defending TVN, or in the case of Iza from Pszczyna. Apart, of course, from situations occurring in the heat of the moment, such as people being documented or facing some charges—pseudo-charges—for crossing somewhere prohibited, trampling a lawn, and so on. I have not heard of any professional consequences being imposed. However, people have the feeling that this is going to happen, that this is how the authorities operate. It paralyzes many people and keeps them from even attending a rally in the town square—a normal, peaceful, half-hour protest rally.

Grażyna Hanaf: – I suspect this may strongly discourage teachers, who are very dissatisfied. Do you have the experience that contact with the police is frightening? Kinga, what was your contact with the police like?

Kinga Gęsicka-Biały: It was unpleasant because, first of all, the police do not entirely act in accordance with the law. The other thing is that during one identity check, a police officer knew about my private situation and blackmailed me. I believe that he simply blackmailed me then, but the letter to the prosecutor's office makes it appear otherwise. You simply find yourself at an impasse; we are fighting windmills.

Grażyna Hanaf: – Kinga, are we talking about the situation when you were surrounded after Morawiecki's visit and the district officer documented your details—is that the situation?

Kinga Gęsicka-Biały: Yes.

Artur Kuczyński: – If I may, we are already fairly accustomed to contact with the police. We have repeatedly been documented or surrounded, including at Andrzej Duda's rally. We meet various police officers—from very zealous executors of orders from above to those who are clearly ashamed that they are being forced to take certain actions. Some perform the duties imposed on them by the authorities above with full awareness that these are dubious matters and certain abuses on their part. They do it because they have to, because they are afraid, because they have loans, and so on. But there are also those who are very zealous in what they do. Presumably, the larger the city or the farther east in Poland, the more zealous officers there are. Fortunately, we do not have such major problems here.

Dariusz Sas: – Certainly, there is the atmosphere of fear created by PiS. An ordinary citizen sees that it is possible to tap the head—not the head, but the chairman of the largest electoral committee of the largest opposition party. If it is possible to tap a very well-known lawyer and former minister; if it is possible to tap, apparently with impunity, a prosecutor who disagrees with Mr. Ziobro; if it is possible to arrest that lawyer with fabricated evidence, then an ordinary person thinks: what can I do? They fear that the same thing could happen to them. That is the kind of fear Artur and Kinga were talking about. Many people would like to come out, but they are afraid. They are afraid to admit their views because, in some way, they may not be connected with this authority, but their professional position depends on it, even in a very indirect way. PiS is ruthless. They are political bandits.

Grażyna Hanaf: – Darek, I always have this question for you. I think I ask you about it in every interview, and every time you say you do not regret giving the police a bouquet of flowers. So I will ask differently: Darek, would you give the Bolesławiec police another bouquet of flowers during the protests? Or not anymore?

Dariusz Sas: – I would give one again, because one must distinguish the Bolesławiec police from the police chiefs in Warsaw, Wrocław and the major cities. Here in Bolesławiec we encounter something—I do not want to call it kindness—but I at least do not feel any form of intimidation directed at us, as the main faces of the protests, or at other people who attend them.

Grażyna Hanaf: – So we salute the Bolesławiec police officers, who will no longer receive awards for not intimidating you. We have done them a disservice, then—great. Listen, we have a film for you. We want to show you, and return briefly to, the first organized event—here I would like to emphasize that the In Gremio Women's Association organized the first march on October 24, 2020, and then somehow you organized yourselves and held more and more, almost every day. I wanted to show you the first Women's Strike march and the one that was the second-to-last—there will certainly be more—which was not so much a march, procession or gathering against Lex TVN. Here we go. I would like to show you how many young people marched, what slogans there were and how heated the atmosphere was. That was the first powerful one. Now look at what happened recently. Completely different people. A somewhat different atmosphere. You sing “March, March, Dąbrowski.” It is patriotic, like at a Law and Justice gathering beneath the Smolensk stairs, don't you think?

Dariusz Sas: – No, I do not think so. We simply sense the atmosphere at each of our gatherings.

Grażyna Hanaf: – But do you want young people? Artur, you appealed for that. Artur appealed: bring young people. But Artur, do you realize that young people will not come to sing the anthem?

Artur Kuczyński: – The rally lasted several dozen minutes, so the anthem was not the only patriotic element. The fact that we understand patriotism differently from PiS and the government does not mean that we do not have the right to the anthem or the right to sing it. After all, everything we do is motivated by concern for the homeland in which we live—for my children not to want to leave, because for now my teenage son says: “I am leaving; I do not want to stay here.”

Grażyna Hanaf: – Why are there no young people at this rally anymore? It was decidedly different; Bolesławiec's local politicians were already appearing there. Doesn't it occur to you that the marches have changed?

Artur Kuczyński: – That is an entirely different matter. The one in autumn 2020 after that ruling—that is completely, I do not want to use such an ugly word, an opportunity. We are meeting for an entirely different purpose. Its dynamics are different.

Grażyna Hanaf: – Kinga, do you miss those first marches, for which you received five charges over the words used there? Do you prefer those marches?

Kinga Gęsicka-Biały: I miss them very much, and more than once I have felt like shouting a few… Eight Stars without the stars. But, as Artur said here, a different kind of force comes into play. The young people who were there then had been so stirred up, as if the last remnants of women's freedom and dignity were being taken away from them. What is happening now is something else. Older people who are aware, who lived in the days of Teleranek and know what media freedom is about, and so on. I really miss the energy of those young people. The people who came to Lex TVN would not shout “Eight Stars without the stars” together with me.

Grażyna Hanaf: – They watch TVN, because those who went to the first marches in October and later no longer watch television.

Dariusz Sas: – I also feel called upon to respond. I remember perfectly what the people who took part in the first strikes outside the courts said. Back when there was not yet any “beska,” when our strikes were very spontaneous, and I attended every strike and saw who came. Their main complaint was that there were no young people. When the Women's Strikes took place, please watch the film you showed us again: there were many young people, while older people were missing. Every strike has its own dynamic. We have learned that over six years. Older people come to some strikes, younger people to others. Younger people seem to lose interest faster. Later they lose the desire for such active participation in strikes. But that does not mean they are not with us. I see it every day as I walk around the city. Many people say something supportive. At these strikes, we try to adapt our message to the people who are actually there. I do not think singing the anthem is wrong. The fact that I am not with PiS, that I am a leftist, does not mean I cannot sing the anthem. Especially since I think the people at this gathering expected it too. We also happened to sing the anthem two or three times at the Women's Strike.

Grażyna Hanaf: – Darek, you have just come out as a leftist here. Listen, you have your political preferences, and they manifest themselves somehow. Kinga, Szymon Hołownia has captivated you. What do you see in him that is attractive to a girl from the Women's Strike?

Kinga Gęsicka-Biały: Even though we differ on certain views, that movement has had my vote somewhere from the first banner; Szymon has had my vote. I grew up in a Catholic family. I am not at the stage where I could leave the Church and so on. I will not do something against myself, but nevertheless I also have my views as a person—not as a Christian or non-Christian. I have my own views. And although we differ on some matters, I know that I have support in the Poland 2050 movement. So I am sticking with that.

Grażyna Hanaf: – Artur, you are in PO. Are you in PO, or are you with PO? And answer my second question right away: is the Bolesławiec Civic Platform really being revived? I find it a little hard to believe.

Artur Kuczyński: – I was a supporter, sympathizer or voter who voted for the Civic Platform in, I think, 2011, 2015 or earlier years. I voted for Komorowski in the presidential election. I became somewhat involved in Trzaskowski's campaign when the presidential election was held. For several weeks or months—essentially since late autumn—I have been trying to support the local Civic Platform in this revival you mention. I do not know what it was like before. I was not interested in the affairs of the local Civic Platform, local SLD or local PiS. I have absolutely no idea who is who in these local political circles. However, I want to do more in some way to change the government in Poland. I believe the current one is so harmful that I would like to devote my hands, head and heart to something that will help change the government. I have no idea whether the next government will be the Civic Platform on its own, the Civic Platform with Hołownia, the Civic Platform with Hołownia and PSL, or some other configuration. I cannot imagine anything worse than what we have now. Wherever I believe I can help in any way, that is where I am.

Grażyna Hanaf: – Darek, are you the only non-party member in this group?

Dariusz Sas: – I am a party man in the sense that I support all the opposition parties. Both the Civic Platform and Hołownia…

Grażyna Hanaf: – I know which parties are in the opposition. Tell me, who will you cross out if there are so many parties? You cannot cross them all out on the ballot, can you?

Dariusz Sas: – I think you can.

Grażyna Hanaf: – You will cross them all out, then… So that is a vote cast…

Dariusz Sas: – Because I keep repeating that Polish politics is governed neither by Tusk nor by Kaczyński. I will repeat it until the end. I hope politicians in Warsaw know how to count. I happen to be a mathematician by passion, not by education. I always say that Polish politics is governed by a man who died more than 100 years ago. His name is D'Hondt. He invented a method of converting votes into electoral seats. If we want to defeat PiS, we must go on one list. Period. As for political involvement, the Bolesławiec Women's Strike is apolitical in the sense that it is not affiliated with any party, but we support all pro-democratic parties—that is, all except PiS and Confederation. Every person, movement, association and party that wants democratic standards restored in this country. That is our goal. And, of course, each of our members may work in whichever party they choose.

Grażyna Hanaf: – So you will take to the streets every time there is a need to protest. Right? You can nod or blink.

Dariusz Sas: – That is certainly how it will be. In matters concerning women and our freedom, whenever democratic standards are violated, we will always take to the streets. We will defend our right to a free, democratic country.

Grażyna Hanaf: – Thank you very much. We will write more about your plans, because I know that you have become involved in the second part of the Tour de Konstytucja. For today, thank you very much for giving us your time and telling us about yourselves and the Women's Strike. Goodbye, everyone, and thank you kindly.