The guests of the IstotneInformacje.pl portal and newspaper were:
- Danuta Maślicka – a councillor in the first term of the City Council, one of the founders of the local television station, and founder of Bolesławiec’s “Teachers’ Solidarity” in 1980.
- Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka – a City Council councillor and teacher at Gimnazjum Samorządowe No. 2.
- Katarzyna Żak – deputy head of I Liceum Ogólnokształcące and a former press spokesperson.
Grażyna Hanaf: If we were to characterise a politician based on common opinions about them, what picture would emerge?
Danuta Maślicka: It is commonly believed that most people who go into politics do so for a career, money…
Katarzyna Żak: …and people believe that they are already politicians.
Danuta Maślicka: That is unfair to many politicians. When Tadeusz Mazowiecki was asked whether all politicians had passed the test during 20 years of governing, he answered briefly: “Of course not all of them passed the test. Some were better, others worse.” However, we cannot generalise based on a few failures and say that everyone is the same, because that is unfair.
So what? They are pushing their way to the trough…
Danuta Maślicka: Here, if someone has political ambitions, they are seen as a careerist. Negatively.
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: That is why people are afraid to get involved in politics. Many who would find their place in this sphere fear a negative reception. In our local environment, we must certainly mention community activists—people who naturally need this kind of activity. They are the ones who most often stand as candidates.
Katarzyna Żak: Yes. They do not necessarily think about becoming politicians. A politician is a person who creates political structures. I support the definition. Let us consider who a politician is. At this year’s Congress of Culture, which I attended, someone put it this way: “A politician is someone who thinks about elections, while a statesman is someone who thinks about generations.”
This definition suggests that we have politicians in the local arena, but…
Katarzyna Żak: …we lack statesmen.
In common opinion, everyone who exercises power has bad intentions. They think only about their own interests. What goals does someone set when they begin considering standing in local elections?
Danuta Maślicka: Ewa hit the nail on the head when she said that some people have a community activist’s passion. For me, it was important to know that something could be repaired or changed, and that people could be brought together to solve local problems.
Katarzyna Żak: There is a gulf in the way we think about politicians. In common perception, a politician is someone who appears in the media and is associated with a party. In our local setting, I cannot remember councillors being called politicians…
But they are called those who pushed their way to the trough.
Danuta Maślicka: Politicians themselves have worked to create this attitude in society toward people in power.
But what does it result from?
Danuta Maślicka: Before elections, various things are said. Promises are made. And when a candidate says them, I believe they may be able to fulfil those promises. Then they become president, mayor or councillor. They discover that what they said before the election cannot be accomplished because many obstacles have arisen. And then they fail to keep their promise. For example, they come up against other candidates who also had their own election programmes. Competition begins, as does the fight for one’s own interests. I remember when we were on the first council. We thought everything could be done quickly and easily. Then it turned out that reality could not be overcome.
What do these real barriers involve?
Danuta Maślicka: Lack of money, lack of support from other politicians…
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: …but also a lack of democratic tradition. That plays an enormous role. We do not know how to talk to one another. There is rivalry, envy and competing with others at any cost.
Danuta Maślicka: There is this way of thinking: why should I vote for something supported by my opponent? I will never forget this from my term. Even though the motion was excellent and served society, people did not vote for it because the opposing political option would have won.
Katarzyna Żak: I will defend my opinion. Can we talk about politicians in our local arena? A councillor does have a duty to set some education and investment policy, but is arguing over a road or pavement politics?
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: Exactly—it is not!
Danuta Maślicka: Well, but the decisions are political.
Katarzyna Żak: That is a different matter.
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: And that is precisely what is wrong.
Danuta Maślicka: I remember a situation like this. Just before the election, I approached a councillor and mentioned a local road that needed repairing. He replied: “Write a letter, but submit it before the election; then I will publicise the matter.”
Katarzyna Żak: Exactly. Is imposing a party’s ideology on city life—where matters come down to details and the interests of everyone are important—not destructive?
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: It is destructive. We do not have politicians in the full sense of the word. We are at a stage where we are developing certain standards, while the political class in our country is still taking shape.
Danuta Maślicka: And the media show us politicians who only make controversial or insulting statements, or attack…
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: …or are stupid, or stand out in some other negative way.
Danuta Maślicka: Someone who expresses a sensible opinion on a specific matter has no chance of appearing in the media.
Katarzyna Żak: Let us not deceive ourselves: our knowledge of politicians comes exclusively from the media. Until the media separate themselves from the parties, the situation will remain as it is.
But even if the media become completely independent of any party, they will still show only the most media-friendly politicians. In other words, mainly shouters and extremists.
Katarzyna Żak: That is already a question of media ethics. I remember a statement by MP Poniźnik. When I asked him why he was not seen on television, he replied: “I work, but when we leave the chamber, the cameras are directed at Lepper and other politicians who are attractive to the media.” They are asked for comments, they assess reality and create it, becoming authorities.
Danuta Maślicka: Our politicians flirt with the media!
Katarzyna Żak: Professor Wiesław Godzic’s report shows that for a long time Poland had a strange marriage between politicians and the party. Before ’89 there was one party, and it had a monopoly on the media. Then many parties emerged, the media became independent, yet for some reason politicians are still afraid of the media. They pat them on the back, saying: “It’s great that you are free, but it would be even better if you did not speak badly about us.” There is widespread resentment toward the media, or the selection of favourites, which is the wrong path. Professor Godzic says there is no democracy without the media. They are not the fourth power; they are the first power and wield enormous strength.
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: Politicians are expected to be media-friendly and able to sell themselves. And that is where the mistake lies! As for the City Council, it should consist of a group of wise people who support the president in governing well and keep him under scrutiny. Councillors do not have to be media-friendly. Media visibility should be secondary. The City Council exists precisely for social dialogue. This should be widely understood. Unfortunately, the City Council is still treated as a tool for practising politics rather than for handling important matters for the community.
What prevents a politician from shaping their own image in the local media?
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: Whatever one does, it will be commented on negatively. By society and by politicians alike. If someone wants to score points against a politician, positive action is treated as a populist ploy. We do not know how to talk to one another or listen to one another; we focus on scoring points and proving to others that they are wrong and that we are better. Then, after the battle on the political arena, it turns out that the opponents were two best friends who have known each other since school. That is how it happens here. They argue publicly, throw terrible arguments at one another, sometimes below the belt, and then it turns out it was all just a show. It is deceiving ourselves and those around us. Perhaps that is why society judges politicians poorly: people are confused and no longer know what it is about.
Katarzyna Żak: Perhaps the system is flawed. We mix community activity with politics. We should elect councillors we trust, who do not have to belong to any political camp, so that they are not later forced to decide the community’s fate according to political directives.
What are the consequences for a councillor who opposes the party’s guidelines?
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: I do not know how it is in other parties. Though I do not want to act as a mouthpiece for my own. I find it hard to believe there is any pressure, but there is certainly such a thing as loyalty.
The number-one rule in a party is to support the leader. So one must be in opposition to other parties that may put forward their own candidate for president. If someone broke ranks, there could be consequences. Someone might shout at them. Or they might say: “We will not put you on the list again…”
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: Well, you are provoking me here… There is some arrangement. But it is not fear of being shouted at…
Danuta Maślicka: I can give an example. When I was a councillor and voted against the expectations of the president at the time, he approached me during a break and said: “How did you vote?! I remind you who your current employer is”… And I voted according to my knowledge and my conscience.
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: We still do not know how to use the mechanisms democracy gives us, and we should blame ourselves. Many people with passions and their own professions do not want to stand as candidates because they have their own lives. Here, it is still important that a politician be visible. It does not matter what they say; what matters is that they are loud and spiteful. That is why we keep choosing people who make a great deal of noise around themselves. The media need a politician who is witty, spiteful and attractive. That boosts ratings.
Katarzyna Żak: But how can a potential voter get to know a politician? The media serve to draw a wider circle and reach more recipients.
And with political passivity in society and an aversion to politics, the voter crosses out the person whose name they have heard, without remembering what or how they spoke. What could improve a politician’s image?
Danuta Maślicka: People need reliable information. Conversations. They need the authorities they elected to consult voters on their decisions.
Katarzyna Żak: Our local community does not entirely treat our politicians as politicians. They are always more of a neighbour than a politician. This closeness means people do not consider whether their ideas are far-reaching. What matters is whether they can secure repairs to our pavement or the access road to our home.
Ewa Ołenicz-Bernacka: Dialogue between those in power and voters is essential. But perhaps questions are not being put to voters in the right way. Perhaps the search for people who would like to talk to those in power is not being conducted as it should be. That is why society has become divided. People feel disappointed and dissatisfied that we do not consult or talk to them. We do not listen to their opinions. This gives rise to passivity and ordinary fault-finding.
Our conversations are the first step toward talking and debating politics. Thank you, ladies, for the conversation.
At the next meeting, we will talk about culture in the city. All women who would like to discuss the subject are asked to contact the editorial office.
The ladies were guests at the Vinci café in Waryński Park. We thank them for making this intimate interior available to us, arranged with great taste under the aegis of Leonardo da Vinci. We recommend the café to anyone looking for an original place where they can enjoy time with friends. Vinci is an ideal venue for organising gatherings with friends. On behalf of the owner, we also invite you to laid-back Fridays.